Romantasy: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly (Season 2, Episode 18)
We have a confession—we love fantasy novels. Khaiah Thomson, one of our regular writers, is the author of a young adult urban fantasy series, the Blackwood trilogy, (which is SO FUN). We chat about what we love about these genres, what’s tricky, how some Christians have tried for safer options but made bad art, and what helps us pick good books. Join us as we cackle our way through this one.
Today, we’re chatting about:
🎧 What we love about the fantasy and romance genres
🎧 Our current frustrations navigating these genres
🎧 Unexpected bad outcomes from Christians trying to make safer alternatives
🎧 Gospel truths that help us make choices in this area
🎧 The nitty gritty: how do you find good books?
If you prefer to read, the transcript is at the bottom of this page 👇🏻
Bios:
Khaiah Thomson: West Australian Author Khaiah Thomson pens the Blackwood series. The first book Welcome to Blackwood won the Hawkeye Publishing Manuscript Development Prize in 2020. Khaiah first decided to write young adult fiction novels as a way to exercise her brain while on maternity leave. She wanted to create a magical escape for young readers, all the while gently weaving in themes of God’s love through the timeless battles of good versus evil, unconditional love and the power of redemption.
Khaiah lives in Perth with her husband and two sons. When she isn't working or in her home office writing, Khaiah can usually be found nose-deep in a book, gaming or at the nearest cafe, hovering close to the coffee machine. Khaiah’s Welcome to Blackwood series can be found in all good bookstores and Hawkeye Books.
Maddy Rhodes: is married to Robbie. Together they delight in their four-year-old son, baby daughter, and very sooky dog. She loves to read, run, drink coffee, and generally spend time with her family and friends. Maddy understands herself as a sinner in need of grace, and feels continually blessed to know the Lord Jesus as she wrestles with the task of endeavouring to rely not on herself, but on him.
Rach: Rach is a part-time Emergency Clinical Nurse, full-time wife and mum. She works in a metro emergency department and thrives on the adrenaline filled atmosphere of the critical care environment. On her days off, she’s ferrying her three kids to school and their various activities, listening to podcasts with one AirPod in, sending memes to her husband, and dreaming about what to cook for dinner.
Bec: Bec is married to Zac and they have three boys. She became a Christian at 18 years old after someone read the gospel of Luke with her. Originally trained as a Clinical Psychologist, she is the founder of Stories I’d Tell You at Dinner and The After Dinner Mint podcast. Her spiritual gift is losing things. You can find more at The Sunday Morning Snuggle.
Mentioned in today’s episode:
· The Blackwood Trilogy by Khaiah Thomson.
· The article we discuss is, Maybe Christian Art Shouldn’t Be “Clean” by Phillip Snyder
. Petition by Maryka Groenwald, a West Australian Member for Legislative Council, has a campaign to protect children from explicit material in public libraries and a request for photos of the books (not people or locations) to be submitted to them.
· Pirates and Courtiers by Gabrielle Davis
· Outlander by Diana Gabaldon.
· The Will of the Many & The Strength of the Few by James Islington.
· The Licanius Trilogy by James Islington
· The Ruin of Kings by Jenn Lyons.
· Cormoran Strike series, starts with The Cuckoo’s Calling, by Robert Galbraith (aka J.K. Rowling)
· Beach Read & Book Lovers by Emily Henry
· Twilight by Stephenie Meyer
· Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling
· The Bronze Horseman by Paullina Simons.
· Les Miserables by Victor Hugo
· Redeeming Love, A Lineage of Grace & Mark of the Lion Series by Francine Rivers.
· The story of a woman going into labour after finding out her husband, brother-in-law and father-in-law all died is recounted in 1 Samuel 4:19-22.
· Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honourable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. (Philippians 4:8)
· Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” (1 Corinthians 15:33)
· Zoe Girl (band) – one of the members was Alisa Childers
If you enjoyed this episode, sign up for honest stories in your inbox on Wednesdays (March through November) from local Christian women. It’s all free 💛
Transcript
00:00.03 | Rach
Okay.
00:01.43 | Maddy
Hi everyone, it's Maddy here. Welcome back to season two of the After Dinner Mint podcast. I'm here today with Khaiah Thomson again, joining us with Rach and Bec as well. We’ll start with an icebreaker so you guys can get to know us a little bit better.
00:25.78 | Maddy
Please tell us—I'm going to start with Khaiah. What is your most recent favourite fantasy novel?
00:34.61 | Khaiah
So my most recent one was actually written by another author friend of mine. It's called—it's a young adult fantasy called Pirates and Courtiers.
00:45.18 | Khaiah
And it's about a girl who has the ability to manipulate light and sound. So that's pretty cool.
00:53.18 | Rach
It is cool.
00:53.18 | Khaiah
And she's also a spy, and she's good with knives and that kind of thing.
00:53.76 | Maddy
Cool.
00:53.95 | Bec
Oh.
00:56.82 | Khaiah
So yeah, my kind of read.
00:57.40 | Rach
[Name], spy.
00:59.83 | Bec
Wow.
01:00.34 | Maddy
Cool.
01:01.18 | Khaiah
Yeah, it was good fun.
01:01.75 | Maddy
It's like the best of all fantasy worlds.
01:02.04 | Bec
What is a courtier? He's our only author friend.
01:05.10 | Maddy
Ah.
01:05.50 | Rach
That is cool.
01:05.50 | Bec
Yeah.
01:08.31 | Khaiah
Yeah, it's one of those ones where I'm one of the first people to read it, so it feels pretty special as well.
01:08.70 | Maddy
I like it.
01:12.83 | Khaiah
But yeah, it was a really good read.
01:13.30 | Rach
That is cool.
01:14.22 | Maddy
Oh, cool.
01:15.45 | Khaiah
Yeah.
01:15.69 | Rach
I don't have any author friends, but—
01:19.14 | Maddy
Yes, you do. Yeah.
01:19.58 | Bec
Only one author friend.
01:20.02 | Khaiah
You have me!
01:20.72 | Rach
That's true, Khaiah, that's true.
01:23.22 | Khaiah
Just don't put pressure on me to write anymore, all right?
01:23.48 | Rach
You're my only one. I was already out, man. Yeah, that's fair.
01:27.90 | Bec
Yeah, that was one time.
01:28.73 | Maddy
All right. Well,
01:30.55 | Khaiah
Yeah, yeah.
01:30.58 | Rach
But—
01:33.82 | Maddy
Rach, let's start with you.
01:33.94 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
01:34.85 | Maddy
What's your favourite fantasy read?
01:38.90 | Rach
I was going to say, I don't really have a—the most recent one, which is not that recent, which is last year, because I'm in a cool adult women's book club. And we read A Court of Thorns and Roses, which is—
01:48.51 | Maddy
It is.
01:52.03 | Rach
It's all right. I was going to say "favourite" is a strong word because it was chosen for me. It was okay. But then my actual favourite fantasy read is—I don't know if it counts. Does Outlander count as fantasy?
02:03.64 | Khaiah
Yeah.
02:04.47 | Rach
She goes back in time.
02:04.70 | Khaiah
Yeah.
02:05.51 | Rach
That doesn't happen in the real world.
02:05.71 | Maddy
Yeah, present—
02:06.44 | Khaiah
It's fantasy.
02:06.94 | Bec
She does. Yeah.
02:07.77 | Rach
And then magic comes into it later and stuff. Yeah, probably Outlander.
02:12.12 | Bec
Doesn't. Oh.
02:13.17 | Maddy
Oh.
02:13.85 | Rach
Yeah.
02:16.07 | Rach
Cool. There you go.
02:16.51 | Maddy
Bec, tell us yours.
02:17.35 | Rach
Yeah.
02:19.62 | Bec
I can't think of my favourite one of all time, but the one that I have read recently that I enjoyed was after a long string of just like—you know me, like I hate everything. What you recommended—sorry, I'm pointing to Maddy, but no one can see me doing that—was the James Islington book.
02:28.31 | Rach
Yes.
02:32.52 | Maddy
I'm here.
02:33.16 | Bec
So I read The Will of the Many and then The Strength of the Few, and there's like a third book coming in that. But then I went off and read the first of his other series, which is like—I'm going to get it wrong, but it's like the Licanius Trilogy. I don't know. And I was just like, these are—I don't know.
02:50.20 | Maddy
I don't know how to pronounce it either, but I love it.
02:29.90 | Bec
I'm just going to go ahead confidently and assume that I know what I'm doing.
02:57.36 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
02:57.31 | Bec
But they're just—they're long books, but they're fun. Like, they've just been actually a lot of fun. So I've enjoyed that.
03:07.33 | Maddy
Yeah, look, Bec's stolen mine as well because I kept thinking about that trilogy and almost started to reread it because I was like, oh, remind me of this bit.
03:11.41 | Bec
Ha ha.
03:11.82 | Khaiah
Thank you.
03:17.81 | Maddy
Yeah, so that was probably my favourite one too because it's just a complex world and it's not quite magic but it kind of is magic. And then there's, yeah, lots of interesting things in the world that they created.
03:31.68 | Maddy
So yeah, good choice, Bec. Today, all three of us really love the fantasy genre. So our topic today, we're actually going to be looking at romantasy or fantasy, thinking about the different genres that we like to read as Christians.
03:54.27 | Maddy
And Khaiah has actually written a young adult urban fantasy series, The Blackwood Trilogy, and we'll link this in the show notes as well. So as we get in, at its best, what do you actually love about the fantasy genre? And what do we love about the romance genre? Let's think about those two.
04:15.85 | Khaiah
I think the first one for me is always escapism. Reading for me is—I don't want to read about the stuff I deal with day to day.
04:19.78 | Rach
Yes. Yeah.
04:24.14 | Khaiah
I want to read about other stuff. So fantasy, I think, does it the best in the sense that stories can be completely out of this world.
04:35.59 | Khaiah
So it completely takes you away from day-to-day life. Or it can be in the world with a bit of magic, that kind of thing. I just like how broad the genre is.
04:49.45 | Maddy
Yeah, absolutely.
04:52.20 | Rach
Yeah, that's a good answer.
04:52.26 | Bec
I'd be with you, Khaiah.
04:53.36 | Rach
Yeah.
04:54.57 | Bec
Yeah.
04:55.11 | Khaiah
Hmm.
04:55.97 | Bec
Like, I like that everything—you've got this escapism, but I also really like—I think across both genres and even thrillers—it's just the fact that stuff gets resolved.
04:57.83 | Rach
Yeah.
05:06.96 | Bec
And I think in your day-to-day life, you don't always get to see problems be fixed. But there's something really satisfying about like, oh, there's something really terrible.
05:14.61 | Maddy
Mm.
05:15.10 | Bec
And what if it doesn't? And then you're like, oh, and it all gets tied together.
05:22.89 | Rach
And I think in the same vein is that the problems are usually also quite well defined. Like, "this is the problem" and this battle, this bad guy, this whatever. And then it gets solved and it's very satisfying because all the things are tied up. It's great. It feels very good.
05:39.24 | Rach
Yeah.
05:40.02 | Bec
Mm-hmm.
05:41.74 | Rach
Yeah.
05:43.20 | Maddy
I think there's also like something really beautiful that you can appreciate about a world, like a whole world that's made—the creativity of it and the complexities of a whole other world that's been created for the purpose of entertainment. I think one of the things that I really enjoyed about the books that Bec and I read was just the levels of how complex it was, that this person was thinking so deeply about the world that he'd created and the layers of complexity within the political system, the people system, and the groups. I just think it's so interesting seeing what people can come up with, like people's creativity, because I'm like, oh, I would never have been able to think of that stuff. I can't even fix our own politics.
06:36.01 | Khaiah
Yeah, I have to agree with you on that one. And another thing I like, sort of in the same vein, is that anything is possible. So one of my favourite fantasy reads probably over the last few years was The Ruin of Kings by Jenn Lyons.
06:43.24 | Rach
Yeah.
06:44.56 | Maddy
Yeah.
06:44.43 | Bec
Hmm.
06:52.33 | Khaiah
And there's this part where they are in a ship, they're going through treacherous seas, and it's protected by this dragon.
06:52.54 | Rach
Hmm.
06:53.59 | Bec
Ooh.
07:00.84 | Khaiah
So they're trying to get to this island, and it turns out this ginormous island is the dragon. So it's like—you know, mind blown.
07:09.25 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
07:09.96 | Rach
That's so cool.
07:11.62 | Khaiah
So I love that kind of stuff that kind of surprises you with just how great it is.
07:11.81 | Rach
Yeah.
07:11.91 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
07:19.29 | Rach
Hmm.
07:19.97 | Khaiah
Yeah.
07:21.45 | Rach
The magnitude. Hmm.
07:22.85 | Khaiah
Yes.
07:24.65 | Bec
Yeah. I also really enjoy getting to see the perspectives of other people and how they respond to problems in a way that I necessarily wouldn't. I mean, I'm not going to go and slay a dragon, but I think often people put their heart and soul into fantasy. So there's all this stuff going on—yes, there's dragons or courtiers or pirates—but it's almost like taking someone's heart and resolving those problems in a different world.
08:01.29 | Bec
So it's just fun to see like, oh yeah, actually this is how someone would respond to a threat, or this is how someone else would respond to this in a way that helps you to get other people.
08:01.20 | Rach
Mm. Mm.
08:08.68 | Bec
That's also just fun.
08:11.73 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
08:13.63 | Maddy
Yeah. So interesting. And I guess a lot of those things have kind of encapsulated the fantasy genre. I don't read much romance, but a lot of the time fantasy and romance can be combined. But do you guys read romance at all?
08:32.97 | Bec
Yeah.
08:33.39 | Rach
Not really.
08:35.40 | Maddy
Hmm.
08:35.64 | Khaiah
I probably do in the romance genre a bit more. And I do like old school romance. Like, I love all of Jane Austen, all of that.
08:44.95 | Rach
Oh, yeah.
08:45.38 | Khaiah
But—
08:46.29 | Bec
Oh, wow.
08:46.61 | Khaiah
But I definitely—any book I read has to have a bit of romance in it.
08:46.86 | Rach
But I don't think that counts.
08:51.49 | Khaiah
I'll make the occasional exception, but there has to be some in there. I like a happily ever after. If they both die in the end, I'm not interested. If one dies in the end, I'm definitely not interested.
09:03.11 | Khaiah
Has to be a happily ever after.
09:04.85 | Bec
Yeah, I don't want to read a depressing book like The Fault in Our Stars or something like that.
09:05.36 | Rach
Yeah, that's fair.
09:08.21 | Khaiah
No, no.
09:08.38 | Bec
I'm like, no, I'm not here for that.
09:10.86 | Maddy
It gets me sad.
09:13.50 | Bec
Hmm.
09:24.14 | Bec
I did really like—and this is maybe a terrible thing to admit—I do love Emily Henry.
09:25.67 | Rach
Oh no, I do.
09:31.64 | Maddy
Who's Emily Henry?
09:31.59 | Bec
I do. I love her.
09:34.44 | Maddy
Thank you. At least Khaiah knows.
09:35.24 | Bec
Guys!
09:38.08 | Khaiah
Hang on, let me Google it.
09:39.27 | Maddy
That's okay.
09:39.61 | Khaiah
I've got to Google it.
09:39.66 | Bec
Oh.
09:40.79 | Khaiah
Maybe I've read it.
09:40.98 | Bec
Look up—but okay, look up.
09:41.52 | Maddy
We're in a bubble.
09:41.57 | Khaiah
Yeah.
09:43.66 | Bec
There is like Beach Read and Book Lovers, and they are my two favourites of hers. Beach Read is about two authors who have completely stuck. They've written books and they have to write books by the end of summer, but they also end up having these beach houses next to each other and they hate each other, so it's kind of like enemies to lovers. And then there's Book Lovers—again, enemies, but they work in publishing.
10:08.49 | Bec
And it's just the way it's written is just fantastic, funny. The books are really funny and you do end up enjoying the characters, but there's really good banter. The start of Book Lovers talks about—you know those Hallmark movies where the man goes off and he's like, "I found my true love"? He has this horrible city girlfriend, but then he goes off and finds his true love and she's the daughter of the people who run the hotel. And then he calls his girlfriend back in the city and she's like, "I can't look up, I'm having Botox," and she's on her power walking machine.
10:43.67 | Bec
And the main character is like, "That's me. I'm the one who gets left for people who go out to the country and find their true love." And I just love it.
10:50.59 | Rach
Right.
10:52.45 | Bec
They're great.
10:52.72 | Khaiah
It sounds like a Hallmark movie, but that's all right. Yeah, I could read that, I reckon.
10:54.87 | Rach
It does.
10:55.76 | Bec
It's not a Hallmark movie. They're funny.
10:59.93 | Rach
I don't know if I can trust someone who wrote a book about people who loved books and called it Book Lovers, though.
11:07.67 | Rach
I feel like it loses points on that.
11:08.14 | Khaiah
Yeah.
11:10.23 | Rach
Yeah.
11:10.27 | Bec
I feel like you would like it.
11:10.90 | Maddy
It's my life.
11:11.43 | Bec
It is funny, yeah.
11:12.73 | Rach
I probably would, to be honest.
11:15.07 | Bec
Yeah.
11:15.97 | Rach
I think I like romance when it's written well in a good book that's already good. Fine, great.
11:21.85 | Bec
Yes. Hmm.
11:27.13 | Rach
But it's not usually something I seek, mostly because I like my husband a lot.
11:29.85 | Khaiah
It—
11:31.73 | Rach
So it's like, I don't seek this elsewhere. It's fine, I'm good.
11:37.10 | Khaiah
The plot is most important, right?
11:37.86 | Maddy
Yeah.
11:39.07 | Rach
Exactly. Whatever moves the plot forward. If that happens to be romance, that's fine.
11:39.74 | Bec
Yeah.
11:40.14 | Khaiah
Yeah.
11:40.62 | Bec
You're like, "I'm here for the plot."
11:43.93 | Rach
Yeah.
11:44.12 | Bec
Cormoran Strike novels—again, excellent.
11:45.69 | Maddy
I definitely—ah, yes.
11:46.43 | Bec
The romance is not the centre of it.
11:46.78 | Rach
Yeah.
11:50.20 | Rach
Yeah.
11:50.23 | Maddy
I think I'm probably similar to Khaiah in that when there's fantasy, there might be a tiny romantic sub-line in there or something in the plot that has a little bit of romance, but the main theme isn't romance. I don't think I gravitate towards romance novels that are purely romance. Like, yeah.
12:11.31 | Maddy
Yeah.
12:11.80 | Bec
Yeah, yeah.
12:14.43 | Khaiah
I think I used to like when there was heavier romance content, but the more I read, everything starts to sound the same.
12:19.42 | Rach
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
12:24.79 | Khaiah
So I think now I definitely look more for an interesting story rather than the sexual tension. I mean, I like that part too, but as long as they go together. Yeah.
12:39.55 | Maddy
It opens up a good segue to our next question. But what are some things that make it difficult to actually navigate these genres as Christians?
12:52.98 | Khaiah
Oh.
12:53.19 | Rach
I think there's quite a lot. My immediate first thought is Twilight and how much I loved it as a teenager, and how incredibly unhealthy the depiction of relationships is in that whole series.
13:03.69 | Maddy
Uh-huh.
13:04.71 | Rach
And I think that's a pretty common theme in a lot of books where it feels good to read it.
13:05.11 | Maddy
Uh-huh.
13:10.79 | Rach
Well, I mean, not anymore, but sometimes it feels good to read it and it seems like, "Oh, he's really protective," and you go, "Oh, in a real-life situation, that might be defined as something other than that."
13:24.79 | Rach
They might use some legal terms for that.
13:25.62 | Maddy
Uh-huh.
13:28.96 | Khaiah
Yeah, I'm the same. I loved Twilight as a teenager.
13:32.56 | Rach
Mm-hmm.
13:32.96 | Khaiah
It absolutely inspired the books I've written.
13:33.60 | Rach
Mm-hmm.
13:34.30 | Bec
Hmm.
13:36.10 | Khaiah
But as an adult looking back, yeah, it's not really a healthy relationship there. Overly dependent, very possessive—all of that.
13:46.69 | Khaiah
Just lots of red flags. So when I wrote my books, I definitely wanted to lean away from that and look more at healthy relationships.
13:56.60 | Rach
Mm.
13:56.67 | Khaiah
Especially, I feel like at the moment, all of the different sub-genres of romance have really gone down a rabbit hole. Some of the different types of books out there never really seem to portray healthy relationships.
14:12.60 | Maddy
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
14:14.62 | Bec
No.
14:22.50 | Khaiah
And that's now leaked into young adult, which is a bit scary when you've got such young, impressionable minds. Books don't have a rating either, which I think is scary when parents are out there picking up books for their teenage daughters or teenage sons and not knowing what kind of content is in them.
14:34.78 | Rach
No.
14:45.76 | Rach
Yeah, that's very true.
14:46.14 | Maddy
Mm.
14:47.80 | Khaiah
Yeah.
14:48.69 | Bec
Just as a side note, I actually saw there was a petition—I think by Maryka Groenwald—where she was like, "Can you report books that you see in your library's children's section that actually have sexual content?" Because they're just kind of in there. Just as you say that, there is no rating system, and it is really hard to work out what's good and what's kind of not good. Something you guys both touched on, which is getting harder and harder to navigate if you genuinely like fantasy books and are happy to read a romance, is that sometimes you read books and you're like, "This is straight-up erotica." It's actually really graphic, and you're like, "I don't think I should read this."
15:33.84 | Rach
Oh, yeah.
15:35.67 | Maddy
It's true.
15:44.32 | Rach
Also, side note: anatomically, as a nurse, I've seen an awful lot of male genitalia, and the way they describe it, it's just not how it works.
15:44.67 | Khaiah
Yeah.
15:52.48 | Maddy
Yep.
15:54.91 | Rach
That's not it. Why does every single character in every single book have just the world's largest penis?
16:02.45 | Rach
It's not true or practical, and I just think it makes men feel bad, and I don't think they need that.
16:10.56 | Khaiah
No. Years ago I was recommended to read The Bronze Horseman.
16:10.87 | Maddy
That's fair.
16:15.11 | Khaiah
Anyway, it's a World War II romance, and it gets to this section in the middle of the book where the two characters marry, and—I kid you not—it was a 30-page sex scene. I was just like—
16:18.21 | Bec
I've read that.
16:18.73 | Khaiah
Yeah.
16:34.19 | Rach
Yeah.
16:35.68 | Khaiah
To the person who recommended it to me, I was just like, "This just wouldn't happen." I mean, there would be chafe. It just wouldn't happen like that.
16:43.94 | Rach
Yeah.
16:47.01 | Khaiah
I can't read it. No.
16:48.55 | Bec
Oh, yeah.
16:48.87 | Rach
Yeah, there's like a—yeah.
16:50.45 | Bec
But also, I put that book down because she was just sleeping with her sister's husband the whole time.
16:50.79 | Khaiah
No. Yeah, yeah.
16:51.55 | Maddy
Yeah, that's full on.
16:56.39 | Bec
And she was like, "But he really loves me." How is this a romance? This just sounds like—are you okay? You need an intervention.
16:57.54 | Khaiah
Yes.
16:58.19 | Bec
He really loves me in secret.
16:58.44 | Khaiah
Yeah.
17:00.64 | Bec
Yeah, that's right.
17:05.47 | Maddy
Yes. Yeah.
17:08.96 | Maddy
Mm.
17:09.15 | Rach
Yes. There are a lot of very unrealistic depictions, which I realize sometimes is what you're reading a book for. If you're going for escapism, you just want everything to be the best possible thing it could be in this fantasy scenario in your head. But I think sometimes it can, as Christians, breed discontent in one's real life.
17:34.21 | Rach
Because I think often in these books, the romance is at the forefront of the plot. The way it's portrayed, the man is obsessed with the girl, and it's this fantasy that a lot of women have. You think, "Oh, that would be so nice, I just want it to be like that." It essentially breeds discontent and makes life in your real marriage or relationship more difficult, or breeds expectations in a relationship you're not yet in.
18:03.39 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
18:12.87 | Rach
That can be unhelpful if not held in its right spot. Yeah.
18:20.32 | Maddy
Yep. Yeah, you articulated very well what I would have articulated as one of the main difficulties of how it actually impacts not just relationships you have, but relationships you might have in the future—and expectations. Something we can be a bit ignorant of is thinking, "Oh, no, I'm reading this, I know it's not true. I can read this safely." But we are actually being ignorant of the fact that what we're reading does shape us.
18:36.85 | Rach
Mm. Mm. Mm.
18:37.90 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
18:40.64 | Maddy
It really shapes our thoughts. The more you read someone speaking or thinking in a certain way, you find you start thinking in a certain way. So you have to actually be really careful about what you're absorbing. I definitely find something that's difficult to navigate about the genres is sometimes there's even a few other agendas in it. It feels a bit preachy, like some of the books I've read in the past.
19:30.41 | Bec
Hmm.
19:31.26 | Maddy
I think Cassandra Clare has a number of books that started to just get super woke and promoting a lot of different things. There was even a relationship of three at one point, and I was like, "This is just getting really weird." Yeah, I felt like there were lots of agendas being promoted, and I was like, it's just getting tiring.
19:55.90 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
19:56.15 | Maddy
Yeah.
19:57.12 | Rach
Yeah, I think a very big one in this whole genre is feminism in particular. The depiction of women doesn't necessarily serve us very well because it's always some 19-year-old who hasn't eaten all winter, is very skinny but somehow has boobs and hips, and is super duper strong and can beat all the men in the training ring. "She's not like other girls," exactly. She's special. Which is fine, she's allowed to be special, but I agree that sometimes if we're taking in all this content, you're like, "Well, why can't I be the special girl? Why am I such a normie?"
20:25.76 | Bec
And she's not like other girls.
20:44.16 | Rach
Um, yeah.
20:47.65 | Maddy
And why can't I ride a dragon to work?
20:48.70 | Rach
Yeah, exactly.
20:52.54 | Khaiah
That's—
20:53.47 | Rach
And why is my partner not obsessed with me? Like, this guy's obsessed with her, despite the fact that it's incredibly impractical to your daily life if that was how it was.
20:53.70 | Bec
Why is life so unfair?
20:54.63 | Maddy
The small things. Mm-hmm.
20:58.38 | Rach
Like this guy's obsessed with her, despite the fact that it's incredibly impractical to your daily life if that was how it was.
21:03.55 | Maddy
And unhealthy.
21:04.77 | Rach
Yeah.
21:04.90 | Maddy
Very unhealthy. Mm-hmm.
21:06.52 | Khaiah
I do have to add to that, though. Some of that is the reason we do read it. Like, I would love to ride a dragon to work, but I can't. And so that's why I read about it. Or I would love to be a sword-wielding, kick-ass woman, but that's not going to happen. But there's a part of me that thinks, how cool would that be?
21:11.52 | Rach
I know.
21:14.29 | Khaiah
So I don't mind reading about it or writing about it.
21:16.29 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
21:17.01 | Khaiah
Yeah.
21:17.57 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
21:21.47 | Khaiah
Yeah.
21:25.38 | Rach
True.
21:25.79 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
21:27.36 | Khaiah
Yeah.
21:28.72 | Bec
Hmm.
21:29.09 | Rach
Yeah, that's fair.
21:31.01 | Khaiah
Yeah.
21:31.17 | Rach
I would like one of the characters to be 40-something, though. I think that would actually be pretty cool. Why are they all 18?
21:31.99 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
21:36.13 | Rach
Are they? Send them to me.
21:36.35 | Khaiah
They are out there.
21:38.59 | Rach
Why are they all 18?
21:38.82 | Khaiah
They are out there. There's just not that many.
21:39.27 | Rach
Are they? Send them to me.
21:41.30 | Khaiah
Yeah, they are out there.
21:42.65 | Rach
Okay.
21:44.03 | Rach
Yeah.
21:46.05 | Maddy
Definitely some that are like the immortal ones, like elves.
22:11.18 | Maddy
So what are some of the ways that church culture has tried to navigate these genres that perhaps has done more damage than good?
22:24.52 | Khaiah
Shut them down completely.
22:25.27 | Maddy
Okay.
22:27.05 | Khaiah
I feel like when Harry Potter came out, it was just seen as witchcraft and all that, and it was just this terrible thing.
22:29.41 | Bec
Um.
22:32.29 | Rach
I sure do.
22:34.83 | Khaiah
You shouldn't watch it or read it. I remember one of my dad's friends was a writer and a lecturer at a theological college over here in WA. He did a big article on reading fantasy and fiction. I asked him his thoughts, and he said, "Well, in real life, do witches ride brooms?" I was like, "Well, no." "And do they cast spells with wands?" I'm like, "Well, no." He's like, "It would be different if you were reading a book about summoning demons or using Ouija boards. But this is just purely fantasy." That can sometimes be construed as something more than just imagination.
23:29.35 | Maddy
Uh-huh.
23:34.95 | Khaiah
So yeah, I feel like when I was 12 or 13, the approach did seem to be just don't touch it at all. We don't talk about sexual attraction; we don't talk about all of that. We'll just ignore it.
23:35.16 | Rach
Hmm. Hmm.
23:53.47 | Rach
Well, my kids go to a Christian school—well, have gone to two Christian schools—and both of them still have a policy where you're not allowed to dress up as a witch, a wizard, Harry Potter, or anything witchcraft-related for Book Week. I think it's real silly, but it's a pretty common policy because a lot of people still think along those lines. People have their opinions theologically about that, but specifically about Harry Potter—I love those books. I've read them so many times, and it's such an intricately crafted story that's so well written. It's like a piece of art, and I think we can take it as such.
24:03.84 | Bec
Oh, wow.
24:22.02 | Bec
Hmm.
24:22.47 | Maddy
And there are some wonderful Christian themes in there, actually.
24:33.19 | Rach
Yeah.
24:34.25 | Khaiah
Yeah, yeah.
24:37.77 | Rach
Yeah.
24:38.30 | Bec
Yeah. He died for his friends, came back to life.
24:40.01 | Maddy
Spoiler alert, but yeah.
24:42.60 | Bec
Yeah. Good versus evil.
24:44.33 | Rach
Yes.
24:45.19 | Maddy
Absolutely. Yeah, it is like this.
24:45.39 | Rach
Yeah.
24:47.98 | Bec
I think that's where I land with them. Maddy, you and me didn't grow up in that kind of Christian environment. For me, when I think about what I want my kids to read, I'm less concerned about them being like, "Oh, there's a witch or there's this or that." But I do want them to read stuff that says, "Hey, there's good versus evil." There are scary things in the world and they are overwhelming, but good triumphs. I want them to see that rather than this kind of wishy-washy relativism where there's not really any evil or anything bad. I want them to see that robust faith that there are scary things, and yet good does triumph.
25:00.12 | Maddy
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
25:28.02 | Khaiah
Thank you.
25:43.99 | Maddy
Yeah. I've spoken to some people who said that having some of these things removed entirely as kids actually made it a taboo thing. "I'm just going to run towards it when my parents aren't looking." Instead of being able to talk about good versus evil in a helpful way, or about sex and relationships in a healthy way with a Christian worldview, conversations were shut down so early. Then in high school, when their non-Christian friends were talking about things, they were exposed in a really unhelpful way. And then they themselves became more interested because it had this taboo around it rather than being a healthy part of conversations. Yeah.
26:36.79 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
26:37.24 | Maddy
Yeah.
26:48.63 | Rach
Yeah, and I still find myself wanting to give my kids the Christian version of stuff—like the "VeggieTales effect." I know they're depicting Bible stories, but it's not a salvation issue. VeggieTales made another thing on Netflix that is not Bible stories; it's just moral teachings, which is weird. But it was that thing of, "This feels safe. It's like Bible stories, even though it's vegetables." Then there was Zoe Girl—I don't know if you remember Zoe Girl, Khaiah, in the girl band era—it was a Christian girl band. And Skillet—a Christian rock and roll band from the noughties.
27:43.91 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
27:49.38 | Maddy
They were Christian? I didn't know.
27:51.03 | Rach
Yeah, they are. Their music's actually all right. That was a real cultural thing in the '90s and 2000s: "The world likes this, let's make a Christian version of it, and that is safe." In leading up to this episode, Bec shared an article with us that discusses this exact topic. I don't know if I completely agree with his take, but it was an interesting perspective on essentially bastardizing an artwork to make a clean Christian version. He argues it's the opposite of art; it detracts from what a person made in God's image has created with their God-given creativity.
28:13.27 | Bec
Yeah.
28:13.62 | Rach
And then we've taken it and made a clean version of it. Why is that more Christian? He went into how the Bible speaks about very graphic sexual things and graphic violence. Those things are a part of our world. Why is removing them more Christian than displaying them with a Christian worldview? For example, displaying sex in its complicated way but within a marriage and how that can play out, rather than glorifying sex as God didn't intend it. It can be depicted in a complicated way as it is. It was a very interesting article, and it immediately triggered my thing of, "Oh, no, but I want to keep my kids from that. I don't want them to be exposed to this stuff." And that made me think, why, though? Because they're going to deal with it. It's going to come up.
29:31.63 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
29:31.67 | Rach
Yeah.
29:56.76 | Rach
Yeah.
30:01.05 | Bec
Yeah, and I remember reading that article. The thing that really fascinated me about his argument was he was saying, well, if you're reading something, you want to think about why that content is there. Why is that sexual content or violence there? What is it doing? It's not to glorify it or say it's gratuitous, but to really point to the theme that things can be redeemed, that your faith is really robust, and God is still really good. I love how he talked about Les Mis. That's considered art; people love it. And yet, it really captures some really bleak parts of humanity.
30:42.29 | Bec
Yeah.
30:56.57 | Maddy
What did you say? How he said—was it Les Mis? No?
30:57.26 | Khaiah
Hmm.
31:04.21 | Rach
Yeah.
31:05.62 | Maddy
Ah, yeah. I just didn't hear what you said.
31:08.92 | Rach
Yeah, Fantine is an incredibly depressing character who sells herself and then dies. That's pretty bleak, but it's also pretty true. And I think he also went into at the end how it's not about seeking out gratuitous violence. You can use wisdom; I don't think we should let our kids consume any content they like. But it's an interesting take to go, why do we think making something "clean" in inverted commas is more Christian?
31:20.89 | Maddy
Yeah.
31:24.53 | Rach
And—
31:31.54 | Rach
One of his big points was if you're going to take something that's popular and make a pseudo-Christian version of it, you're not making art; you're actually trying to profit from the evangelical space because people will consume it because they think it's the safe version. And that's actually not great.
31:41.74 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
32:10.38 | Bec
And sometimes, it's that thing where you read something that you know is Christian or approved, but you're like, "It's just kind of cringe." You're like, "This is not great." Whereas you read a really good story or a saga or an adventure, there's something that almost transcends. In a really good story, you think even the Bible is an amazing story. Help me, Khaiah.
32:22.06 | Bec
Yeah.
32:23.27 | Rach
Mm.
32:23.58 | Bec
Yeah.
32:37.82 | Bec
Yeah.
32:39.59 | Rach
Mm.
32:46.05 | Rach
Mm.
32:48.35 | Khaiah
Yeah, I was just going to say, I think when you focus too much on trying to keep something clean or the rules around that, it becomes very bland because the writer's not willing to take any risks in their writing. Taking risks is actually really important for building a good plot and good climaxes. So yeah, if you're too focused on trying to keep it clean, it can make it boring.
32:57.68 | Rach
Yeah.
32:58.68 | Bec
Hmm.
33:02.73 | Rach
Mm.
33:03.03 | Bec
Hmm.
33:22.53 | Maddy
I was going to say, I read a couple of Christian ones a long time ago when I first became a Christian—like a Christian romance or something. And I found it sweet, but just a little boring. I probably wouldn't have recommended it again. It was sweet, I enjoyed reading it, but then I was like, eh. There are other books I've read that are better. So yeah, I definitely experienced what you were saying there, Khaiah.
34:00.01 | Rach
A book I immediately thought of is Redeeming Love, which is such a good book and very not boring, but does not shy away from strong themes and concepts and is literally based on a book of the Bible.
34:08.70 | Maddy
That is a good one. Mm-hmm.
34:13.18 | Bec
Thank you.
34:16.48 | Rach
And it's well written, very engaging, and written by a Christian author. She doesn't shy away from those topics and the things that come up in Hosea. It's such a great book, and I think that illustrates his point really well. It's a Christian writing about the things of the world from a Christian worldview with biblical values coming through, without it just being a mallet to the head of, "Oh, the answer is Jesus."
34:58.63 | Rach
If you want to do a quiz, that's a hint. Yeah.
35:06.17 | Maddy
Yeah, actually, I read that ages ago and I really enjoyed it. I think there was another one that she wrote, which was like five short stories of five different women in the Bible.
35:14.80 | Rach
Yeah, A Lineage of Grace.
35:15.38 | Maddy
She wrote?
35:17.52 | Rach
Lineage of Grace?
35:18.06 | Maddy
Lineage of Grace, that's the one. Five short stories based on five different women in the Bible. You know how you read these scenes and they're just half a chapter or like a paragraph in the Bible?
35:18.73 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
35:18.94 | Maddy
Yeah.
35:20.08 | Rach
She's good.
35:32.22 | Maddy
But then she expands a bit more on what that actually would have been like for those women in those times. Because we read it and then we just kind of keep reading the Bible. You don't actually think about the story, the person, the content of what happened to that person, or how she would have felt in that culture at that time. So it was really interesting reading those. Sorry, yeah. Bec, did you—
35:38.46 | Rach
Hmm.
35:57.19 | Bec
I just wanted to say I have had other people recommend Redeeming Love to me before and I've always been like, "I'm not going to read that. That's just a Christian novel," and whatever. But now I'm like, maybe I should read this.
36:09.80 | Rach
It's actually really good.
36:11.74 | Maddy
Yeah, I read it a long time ago, and I did actually enjoy it.
36:12.50 | Bec
Yeah.
36:13.40 | Rach
I literally listened to the first few chapters of 1 Samuel this morning. When Eli the priest's sons are corrupt, God sends his judgment and both his sons die in battle. Then Eli falls over, breaks his neck, and dies. And the immediate next thing is his daughter-in-law—his son's wife—goes into labour because of the shock of the battle, her husband dying, and her father-in-law being dead. She immediately goes into labour. And that was the first thing I just thought of, Maddy—this woman in this horrific scenario having to give birth to a baby in this awful time. These are the things that are depicted in the Bible. And yet so much of the Christian version of things is just this sanitized thing, which it just isn't.
36:33.96 | Bec
Hmm.
37:05.96 | Rach
Hmm.
37:07.62 | Maddy
Good.
37:09.58 | Khaiah
Yeah, sorry, while you were talking about that, I was Googling because there were these books by Francine Rivers that I read years ago, the Mark of the Lion series. They were brilliant too. And another good Christian romance author that I really enjoyed, she does fictional romance, was Julie Klassen as well. She does some good stuff, yeah. Sorry, just thought I'd throw those out there.
37:13.04 | Rach
Oh yes, yeah.
37:34.42 | Maddy
Good to know.
37:37.54 | Rach
Thank you, I know we appreciate them.
37:40.19 | Maddy
Great.
37:40.32 | Bec
Yeah, I'm writing down book recommendations this whole chat. I'm like, "Yes, Khaiah said this one, good, good, good."
37:44.79 | Rach
Okay.
37:45.15 | Maddy
I reckon Bec needs to put the book recommendations in the show notes. But you know, as we've chatted a little bit about this, let's think a bit more explicitly. What are some of the gospel truths that can help actually guide our decision-making when we are choosing what books to read?
37:50.27 | Bec
I will.
37:50.60 | Khaiah
Yeah.
38:07.64 | Bec
I don't know if this is an explicit gospel truth, but I'll start with the vibes and maybe, Maddy, you can bring us down to specifics. This is me gesturing.
38:17.90 | Maddy
Cool.
38:19.06 | Rach
Yes.
38:19.07 | Bec
Ah.
38:19.27 | Maddy
She's doing specific gestures.
38:25.14 | Bec
I think one of the things that I appreciate about the Christian faith is it just has a really good answer for the dark things in life. And I honestly think that people choose a more sanitized version sometimes because I don't think they trust that their theology will hold up to it. It's a really robust faith. God will walk with you through anything; He can redeem anything. And the other thing is that God made things beautiful just because He could. I think there's something in that. It doesn't have to be super narrow; you can capture all of the lights and darks. It doesn't just have to be a certain bandwidth.
38:59.51 | Rach
Mmm. Mmm.
39:00.49 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
39:11.30 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
39:26.36 | Bec
I don't know if my analogy works at all, but those are the two things that I really start with. I think people are just like, "No, I'm going to leave you sitting on the gate because I don't think that my faith can deal with this," but I think it really can.
39:41.64 | Rach
Um.
40:05.08 | Maddy
Yeah, it's a great observation there, Bec. Yeah, Khaiah, you got something to add for us?
40:12.19 | Khaiah
Yeah, I think another one—and we've kind of touched on it throughout the conversation—is around guarding your mind. It is very easy to become used to certain themes and accustomed to explicit content. So many of the shows that are streaming now—I guess it comes back to the old saying of "sex sells." There's always a bit of something, so it's very easy to get used to it and more accustomed to it.
40:20.53 | Rach
Hmm. Hmm.
40:21.06 | Khaiah
So maybe for me, sometimes I do need to think about what I'm reading and come back to this. Because it is too easy to get used to it, and your tolerance changes. From what you would read before and think, "Oh yeah, this is probably a bit much," further down the track, it just becomes the usual, "Oh yeah, this is just another novel with this in it." So yeah, just being mindful of that.
40:51.33 | Rach
Yeah. Mm.
40:52.02 | Maddy
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
40:52.40 | Bec
Just as you were talking, Khaiah, I remember I was doing this professional development one time, and it was about imagery restructuring for trauma. What they talked about was getting people to imagine the thing that had happened—but imagining, say, a big version of you is there to protect you if you're a child. Something they said that has always really stuck with me is that the brain doesn't distinguish between imaginal trauma and real trauma in a lot of ways.
41:53.22 | Rach
Mm-hmm.
41:53.69 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
41:56.57 | Bec
Yeah, I'm sure that's not a perfect piece of research, but I was like, that is really interesting. It's like you're taking something into you, and that's going to be in there. I can't forget that I've read that. What am I taking into my heart? I think that's something that we don't take as carefully as we should, or that I've certainly disregarded.
42:20.60 | Khaiah
Yeah. Yeah. You said that much better than I did. Thank you.
42:27.08 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
42:29.88 | Rach
Well, it made me think of the verse in 1 Corinthians 15 that says, "Bad company corrupts good character." And I think if you're feeding your mind forever with things that are not helpful, then it is going to have an effect. But sometimes it's hard when you're in a book to go, "Oh, this is probably not great. I should stop this one."
42:42.47 | Bec
Hmm.
42:49.07 | Khaiah
Hmm.
42:58.17 | Khaiah
Yeah, just skip the pages, right?
42:58.30 | Rach
Go, "Really good." Yes. Alas, yeah.
43:04.47 | Maddy
I think it is actually important if you have a conviction where you're like, "Oh, I don't think what I'm reading is going to be helpful for me," and going, "Oh, this content is really explicit, and I'm finding it a bit disturbing or it's actually changing my expectations or my thoughts"—being able to then pray and ask God to give you the strength to step away from those things. Because some people can read things and not be as affected by it as others; you do have to just have wisdom in that.
43:18.07 | Khaiah
Hmm.
43:35.35 | Rach
Mm-hmm.
43:41.79 | Maddy
What we are looking at, seeing, and hearing is shaping our hearts. So we want to make sure that we have a real good balance. When we are reading this content, we need to know, "I'm reading a book, and I'm really enjoying this romance fantasy or romantasy, but it has been written by someone who does not know Jesus and has a different worldview or a different agenda."
44:14.87 | Maddy
And even with some Christian authors, you do need to just be mindful that it's not a prescription book. We need to be balancing what we're reading by making sure that we're reading scripture, meeting with people, and keeping our eyes fixed on Christ rather than allowing the other things we're taking in to warp or change our views and perspective on things. In Philippians, it talks about meditating on whatever is lovely and whatever is good.
44:44.40 | Khaiah
Mm-hmm.
44:52.03 | Maddy
And if you're finding what you are reading is impacting your ability to be kind in your relationships, to have healthy relationships, or impacting your desires for other people, you actually really need to be filtering that through the Bible. You might need a good Christian community to keep you accountable as well. It could be as simple as that—well, it's never really that simple, but there are lots of people in Christian community reading good books and wanting to keep one another accountable as well. It's definitely worth thinking about it in that way. So practically, how do we actually find good books?
45:42.93 | Rach
I don't have much time to read, so I will not read a book unless it's heavily recommended by people that I like and who have similar tastes to me. It's very unlikely for me that I will read a book based on just the cover, a synopsis, or a review.
45:49.44 | Maddy
Fair.
46:02.36 | Rach
Someone that I know has to have liked it. Otherwise, I don't have time for that.
46:10.06 | Maddy
Agreed. Recommendations.
46:11.21 | Rach
Yeah.
46:12.47 | Rach
Yeah.
46:14.22 | Bec
Yeah, I did get a lot of recommendations from—I was in Coffee and Crumbs, which is an online writers' group. I got a lot of recommendations from that and their podcast, just looking for some good fiction books. Otherwise, I trawl around on Goodreads. But every now and then, I'll pester all the writers in the group chat and be like, "What are you reading? I hate everything. Help me." Because I just want to reserve books at the library, walk in, take them, and then leave. I do take my children to the library, but it's mostly for them. I can't walk around the library looking for myself with children in tow.
46:48.48 | Bec
Yeah.
46:52.39 | Maddy
Mm-hmm.
47:01.94 | Rach
This is a big side note, but on Goodreads, have you seen someone put up a one-star review of Pride and Prejudice? He said, "One star, just a bunch of people going to other people's houses." And he's not wrong. He's right. Anyway, sorry, yeah.
47:19.78 | Maddy
It's not... That was hilarious.
47:24.22 | Bec
Yeah.
47:26.19 | Khaiah
Yeah, I'm a bit disillusioned with social media "Bookstagram" recommendations. I feel like—I can't even remember the last book that I read that was recommended there, but it was terribly written. I was like, "That's it, I'm done."
47:33.34 | Rach
Yeah.
47:45.16 | Rach
Nah.
47:46.14 | Khaiah
And I even get a bit the same with Goodreads. So I think it's just word of mouth. If someone says, "You really have to read this book," I might read it.
47:52.76 | Rach
Yeah.
47:56.26 | Rach
Hmm.
47:57.07 | Khaiah
Yeah. Yeah.
47:57.64 | Maddy
Awesome.
47:57.90 | Bec
I'm a very assertive book lender—maybe a little bit aggressive. Like, "You should read this book, it's really good."
48:05.07 | Maddy
"You should read this book!"
48:05.58 | Bec
Yeah, I know. And I'm like, "Look, I have it. You can even borrow it from me."
48:06.64 | Rach
You're the JW. Noted.
48:10.83 | Rach
With—
48:10.70 | Bec
I know.
48:13.51 | Maddy
It's like your love language is like, "Take this book from me. I love you."
48:17.10 | Bec
It is. It is. "I love you, I read this book for you." That's how you know I love you, because now I've found the book that you should be reading next. But I just need someone to recommend me really good fiction books; that's what I need in my life. So that's it.
48:34.98 | Rach
Noted.
48:36.49 | Maddy
Awesome. It's really cool that we can appreciate the creativity in this world. In God's common grace to creation, people are creative. Just as God is the Creator, people are creative, and we can really admire creativity that we find in the novels we're reading. It is amazing what people can write and the worlds people can make—and that kind of beautiful order-out-of-chaos thing that you guys mentioned earlier, where there's a problem that can be actually resolved.
48:59.89 | Bec
Mm-hmm.
49:09.98 | Maddy
And that's also in the story of the Bible: God is bringing order out of chaos, and the curse of the Fall is coming to an amazing story conclusion in the new creation in the age to come. So we can actually find lots of comfort and joy in fantasy novels and in the various books that we are reading, because we can appreciate them as a reflection of everyone's desire to have order out of chaos, to have good and right relationships, and to be loved in the way that God loves us.
49:30.33 | Rach
Thank you.
49:49.64 | Maddy
So this has been a really great conversation, so I really appreciate you guys for joining in. And Khaiah, I'd love to know, if the women listening to this podcast want to read your books, where can we buy them?
50:03.29 | Khaiah
Yeah, so you can either go through the publisher's website—Hawkeye, I think, has a deal on at the moment and free shipping—it's hawkeyebooks.com.au. Otherwise, there are a few bookstores around that have them, and you can ask for them to be ordered in as well. They're with all book distributors, so your bookstores can get them in.
50:27.47 | Maddy
Awesome. And so that's The Blackwood Trilogy.
50:27.76 | Bec
And no pressure, but tell us what your books are about. Because I'm your biggest fan, bro. I love them. So please tell everyone what your books are about before we close.
50:30.35 | Khaiah
Yes, yeah.
50:30.70 | Maddy
Yeah.
50:32.36 | Khaiah
That's—
50:32.20 | Bec
No pressure. Give us the spiel.
50:35.89 | Maddy
Oh, yeah. Tell us.
50:37.29 | Bec
But—
50:37.77 | Khaiah
Okay, so it's a young adult fantasy novel about a girl named Freya. She's 17 years old. Yes, so there are some very familiar tropes there. But she has the ability to take powers from others and then keep them for herself. So it's sort of her journey through her powers developing and navigating good and evil. There's a redemption arc in there, and yeah, some good stuff.
50:50.63 | Rach
I'll read it.
51:13.40 | Khaiah
And as I mentioned earlier, it was inspired by Twilight. So it's set in a small town, which was inspired by the Margaret River region because I love it down there. And yeah, so if you like the sound of that...
51:24.61 | Rach
Hence Blackwood.
51:26.63 | Khaiah
Pardon?
51:27.32 | Rach
Hence Blackwood.
51:27.94 | Khaiah
It's Blackwood, yes.
51:29.19 | Rach
Nice.
51:29.26 | Khaiah
Yeah.
51:29.66 | Maddy
Blackwood.
51:31.66 | Khaiah
Yeah.
51:32.14 | Maddy
That's awesome.
51:32.34 | Bec
Brilliant.
51:33.64 | Maddy
Well, I look forward to my next read, Khaiah Thomson's Blackwood Trilogy. Awesome. All right, thanks everyone for tuning in today. We look forward to joining you in our next chatty podcast. Thanks, guys.